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  1. connecting numbers (9)
  2. Word for "program"? (2)
  3. senior thesis (1)
  4. Translating Historic (U.S.) American Documents (4)
  5. le mi tamne (3)
  6. na'e bo da (0)
  7. How tall is it? (2)
  8. lo da a de broda (2)
  9. brivlacme mechanics (1)
  10. cmene morphology (34)

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No.1523   [Reply]

How do you say "fifty or sixty people" without repeating "prenu", i.e. connecting only numbers? Also, is there a way to say "the [8 or 9]th day" without repeating "moi"? Thank you.

6 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
>> No.1532  

>>1528

([zo'o] Cool name)

>> No.1536  

>>1530

{lo mu no ji'i xa no prenu} is "five thousand and (approximately) sixty people", according to the CLL. http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c18/s9.html

{ji'i mu mu} or {mu ji'i mu} might be better, despite the odd appearance. {mu no'o} is another possibility.

>> No.1537  

>>1536

Yet another possibility is {vei ji'i mu no bi'o ji'i xa no prenu}.

As for the "(8 or 9)th day" thing, the grammar could use a change here. The rule that says "(number | lerfu-string) MOI" could be changed to "operand-3 MOI". Actually, almost all the places where 'quantifier' and 'number' are referenced could be changed to 'operand-3', I think.



No.1533   [Reply]

I'm a computer programmer, and got mixed up with the wrong crowd!
In the depths of my ignorance, {setinbe} would seem to almost make a passable word for "program". Mainly because it was the only word I could find that had that "giving orders x_2" anywhere involved. What with orders or commands being the usual stuff that goes into source code. In most languages. But we usually don't really call them "commands" as such . . .
See why I wish I had a word for it?

>> No.1534  

You're the second person to ask this. It's "sampla". Use http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ and http://lojban.org/tiki/conversation+guide if you need to find vocab that's not on the gimste. You should also get on the lojban maling list on google groups if you don't like the current word and would like to discuss other options.

>> No.1535  

>>1534
Thanks! As a matter of fact, I don't like it much, but I can't think of a better way to phrase it, really. And I don't feel too contentious as such a late-comer to a community of a couple hundred. And besides, it's not like the derivation of "program [verb]" is that reasonable either. From "itinerary [noun]" to "compose a sequence of commands [totally a verb clause]"? I'm just glad {sampla} takes less than four words to express.
Thanks again!



No.1525   [Reply]

Hi!

I read about Lojban and started the "Lojban Tutorial" some time ago, but I stopped. Now I think that it would be a good subject for my senior thesis in Computer Science. Maybe involving the language and AI.

I would like to know if you have ideas about this! Thanks!

>> No.1526  

.yyy .i xu do kakne lo nu tavla fo la .lojban. .i ganai go'i gi ko ciska ri

Have fun.



No.1452   [Reply]

Are there any Lojbanic translations out there of, for example, the Declaration of Independence of the Constitution?

If not, I would not mind tackling them. If so, where may I see them?

1 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
>> No.1473  

Let Me know how far You get with this. I think this would be very interestig to see.

>> No.1508  

>>1473

mi selcme fi mi fe zoi glatfa. Nomen .glatfa

Sorry, I have been somewhat busy lately and progress has been slow. However, I have "finished" the first paragraph of the U.S. American Declaration of Independence. The first part is largely based on the text provided in the link, but I have made some alterations and corrections. The second half is my own work. I am not exactly sure if I closed all of the sumti tcita, clauses, etc. Please review, make corrections, etc.- it probably needs a lot of help. A somewhat direct gloss/re-translation is provided. Note that the majority of the dozument so far is one (very long) bridi. I tried to retain the style of the orginal English text.

Note: I re-translated it as "thirteen colonies of America", whereas the original English text mentions "states". Since Lojban really does not have a separate word for these two, it was more of an oversight on my part in the re-translation. The Lojban word just means "politities", which encompasses both English terms. I am leaving the less perfect re-translation note, and this commentary, as they are (rather than going back and deleting the desired text and inserting an improved version) so that the histoury of this post is maintained, in order to show that I am not perfect, and because it is an interesting explanation that reveals a detail about the language.

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>> No.1522  

>>1508

Please review. :)



No.1515   [Reply]

" le nakni tamne to be mi toi bei le bruna be le mamta be mi bei lei selpanzi ka'e tavla bau le rusko "

1) Is the grammar correct? I was concerned with not closing the bei's but, at the same time, the terbri in the gismu's definitions ran out, so it should be unambiguous as to which gismu the internal sumti belongs.

2) Did I correctly apply sumti for the "relationship/tie" terbri?

3) Is the use of ka'e correct? How about of bau, or should I have used the fourth terbri of zo tavla?

4) I was trying to say "my male cousin, related by the biological brother of my mother (my biological maternal uncle), can speak Russian". Did I translate this concept accurately?

>> No.1518  

1) If you remove the {to} and {toi}, then the grammar is correct. As is, the {bei} following the comment confuses the parser. Also, the parser doesn't know how many arguments a word takes, so you need to add a {be'o} in there.

2) It makes sense to me.

3) {ka'e} here just says that he is theoretically capable of speaking Russian (even if he doesn't know the language yet). {pu'i} may be more appropriate here. As for {bau}, I don't think it matters whether you use {tavla bau X} or {tavla fo X}.

4) Once you make the above corrections, it looks about right. However, {lo mi mambunbe'a} would have been a lot shorter :)

>> No.1519  

lo bersa be lo bruna be lo mamta be mi pu'i tavla fo la rukybau

"A son of a brother of a mother of me can talk in Russian."

>> No.1521  

>>1519

"pu'i tavla fo la rukybau" means that the cousin's capability of talking in Russian has been realised, which may not always be the same as "can talk in Russian".

"se bangu la rukybau" seems better to me; if he se bangu a language, then he can talk in it.



No.1520   [Reply]

Why is "bo" required in "na'e bo da broda"? I know that this "bo" joins "na'e" and "da", but why does such a joint need to be made explicit in this case where "na'e" is separated from "broda" in the first place?



No.1513   [Reply]

In Lojban, how does one ask "how tall is it?" or "how short is it?"? I think this question matters. In normal conversation, the first question is a request for information concerning the measure of a distance vertically from one end point to another, both located on some object. The second does the same thing, but with an intrinsic and strong connotation of shortness (id est: the distance is lesser by some standard). The way that the question should be asked would either be "is it tall?"/"it is small?" or "what is its vertical measure from loci ___ to loci ___ in units ___?". The is a much less suggestive and more mechanically neutral style of question, even prefered over the former format (which a pointed).

Similarly, Lojbani (jbopre) should refrain from saying "three is bigger than two" but should instead use "three is numerically greater than two". If there is a separate word for this type of "great(er)" (as opposed to "amazing", "good", "powerful", or "big"), then this should be used.

>> No.1514  

For the first two I like:

> mo clani
> mo tordu

I think I'm the only one who does, but in my view it's admirable in its concision and the latitude it gives the respondent.

>> No.1517  

The standard ways to ask those questions:
"How tall is it?": ma ni clani
"How short is it?": ma ni tordu
"Is it tall?": xu clani
"Is it short?": xu tordu

"Three is greater than two.": li ci zmadu li re
"Three is numerically greater than two.": li ci namcu zmadu li re
{zmadu} is the most general form of "greater" (more like "exceeds"), and the standard comparative used by most jbopre, so, no worries there. Equivalents to "amazing", "good", "powerful", and "big" are {banli}, {xamgu}, {vlipa}, and {barda}.



No.1509   [Reply]

According to jbofi'e,

lo pe da a de broda cu brode

is grammatical, but not

lo da a de broda cu brode

... why?

>> No.1510  

I could be totally off, but I will give a crack at it. I think what's happening is that because {da,de,etc...} are pro-sumti, jbofi'e sees {lo da} and expects another sumti (i.e. {lo da mlatu}). So it sees {lo da .a} and gets confused. Meanwhile, the first one is ok because the {pe} puts an implicit {zo'e} in before it... or something? at which point it's fine because it's { (lo zo'e (pe da .a de) broda) cu brode) so the zo'e and broda become a tanru.

If any more certu type folks need to correct me, please do.

>> No.1516  

>>1509

{lo da broda} is equivalent to {lo broda pe da}, but only simple sumti are allowed in the first case (i.e., no logically connected sumti). >>1510 is correct about why {lo da a ...} confuses the parser, but {lo pe da e de [ge'u] broda} doesn't have an implicit zo'e; that's just a normal relative phrase, but attached to a different location than normal. It's almost the same as {lo broda pe da e de}. See http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c8/s6.html for details about where relative phrases can be attached to a sumti.



No.1511   [Reply]

Can I fill in the place structure of a brivla sumti, even if I am using it in a name? For example, is la broda be da be'o allowed?

>> No.1512  

yes, it is.



No.1458   [Reply]

I've been doing a careful reading of chapters 3 and 4 of the CLL in an attempt to answer some questions (of my own) about cmene morphology.

Short refresher: there are rules governing which consonants can be adjacent to each other (consonant pairs), which consonant pairs can appear at the beginning of a word (initial consonant pairs), and which groups of three consonants can exist (consonant triples).

From what I can tell, consonant pair rules apply to all words, including cmene, so "akbar" and "djeimz" are both invalid, but initial pair rules and consonant triple rules don't apply to cmene at all, so "mknil" and "andjelin" are both valid cmene. Unfortunately, both jbofi'e and camxes think "andjelin" is an invalid cmene, even though the much more difficult consonant cluster in "mknil" is considered valid by both. Is this an error, or is there a reason to disallow "andjelin" while ignoring all the other consonant triple rules?

Another thing: cmene have penultimate stress by default, although non-default stress can be indicated with capitalization. Syllabic consonants and 'y' syllables are skipped when determining default stress, but it isn't completely clear whether 'iy' and 'uy' syllables are skipped or not. ('iy' and 'uy' diphthongs are allowed in cmene, but nowhere else.) I'm assuming they're skipped.

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>> No.1501  

>>1463

"kb" cannot be allowed because it is stringing an unvoiced consonant with an adjacent voiced consonant. "ndj" has no such restrictions as nasals (although typically voiced) can be either unvoiced or voiced and the other two are voiced.

>> No.1502  

>>1468

Remove the "g", since "n" can operate both as an alveolar nasal or a velar nasal. I disagree with this (I have always agreed with those who advocate the use of eng or another letter representing it for Lojban), but the official rules say that such interpretation is allowed.

>> No.1503  

>>1483

My "ch" actually occur in a totally different region of the mouth from my "sh" (as do "dj" from "zh"), although I understand why Lojban represents "ch" as "tc".



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