Posts and uploaded files are owned by the poster. jbotcan.org is not liable for the content submitted by the poster. Downloading any poster-submitted files is doing so at your own risk.
[All threads]
Which connective is most implied in "mi'o"?For example: mi'o bevri lo pipnoIs it mi .e do bevri lo pipnoormi joi do bevri lo pipnoormi ju'e do bevri lo pipno?
Which connective is most implied in "mi'o"?
For example: mi'o bevri lo pipno
Is it mi .e do bevri lo pipno
ormi joi do bevri lo pipno
ormi ju'e do bevri lo pipno
?
I think it is "mi .e do bevri lo pipno"
CLL 6.13 says:mi'o'', mi'a'', ma'a'', and do'o'' specifically represent mass combinations of the individuals (you and I, I and others, you and I and others, you and others) that make them up.So it would be a mass connective, probably "joi", not ".e".
CLL 6.13 says:
mi'o'', mi'a'', ma'a'', and do'o'' specifically represent mass combinations of the individuals (you and I, I and others, you and I and others, you and others) that make them up.
mi'o'',
ma'a'', and
So it would be a mass connective, probably "joi", not ".e".
"mi'o'' is the same as mi joi do''"http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c7/s2.htmlIn other words, "mi e do bevri lo pipno" means "I carried the piano and you carried the piano" (in a more compact form), while "mi'o bevri lo pipno" means "We carried the piano" (with a more specific meaning for "we" than the English implies).
"mi'o'' is the same as mi joi do''"
mi'o'' is the same as
http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c7/s2.html
In other words, "mi e do bevri lo pipno" means "I carried the piano and you carried the piano" (in a more compact form), while "mi'o bevri lo pipno" means "We carried the piano" (with a more specific meaning for "we" than the English implies).
Hi there. I've been able to find the Ljban/English dictionary in PDF format but I've seen no sign of other languages. Is there any reason for that?Being Italian, I'd like to have a direct definition/translation of Lojban words into my language rather than having to translate to/from English first.I also think this would help spread lojban knowledge among people not knowing English that well.
Hi there. I've been able to find the Ljban/English dictionary in PDF format but I've seen no sign of other languages. Is there any reason for that?
Being Italian, I'd like to have a direct definition/translation of Lojban words into my language rather than having to translate to/from English first.
I also think this would help spread lojban knowledge among people not knowing English that well.
>>1364>> you are brave!Only if I manage to do it :)I would really appreciate if any Italian speaker would review the translation to check it's accurate and conveys the intended meaning.I'm keeping the file here:http://c-libutl.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/examples/jbo/ita-wordlists.xlswith a green line on the last word I've translated (I'm at row 444 of the gismu sheet at the moment)Any feedback would be really appreciated!
>>1364
>> you are brave!
Only if I manage to do it :)
I would really appreciate if any Italian speaker would review the translation to check it's accurate and conveys the intended meaning.
I'm keeping the file here:
http://c-libutl.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/examples/jbo/ita-wordlists.xls
with a green line on the last word I've translated (I'm at row 444 of the gismu sheet at the moment)
Any feedback would be really appreciated!
>>1357>Unfortunately, I think the only ones that are fairly complete, besides English, are Spanish and Esperanto.Here is a Lojban-Japanese dictionary, translated by me and reviewed by other Japanese speakers:http://www.editgrid.com/user/tijlan/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B8%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3%E8%BE%9E%E6%9B%B8
>>1357
>Unfortunately, I think the only ones that are fairly complete, besides English, are Spanish and Esperanto.
Here is a Lojban-Japanese dictionary, translated by me and reviewed by other Japanese speakers:
http://www.editgrid.com/user/tijlan/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B8%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3%E8%BE%9E%E6%9B%B8
tijlan I don't speak Japanase (I wish!) but I think it should be included in jbovlaste or, at least, being referenced from lojban.org site!Btw, it's a great idea to use an online spreadsheet! I'll do it as well, thanks for the suggestion.
tijlan I don't speak Japanase (I wish!) but I think it should be included in jbovlaste or, at least, being referenced from lojban.org site!
Btw, it's a great idea to use an online spreadsheet! I'll do it as well, thanks for the suggestion.
I was looking for the Lojban words for "parser" and "scanner" in the computer science sense. I've not been able to find them so I guessed I had to invent mine (assuming they are not already there).So, since a scanner (or lexer) is something that analyze a text to extract tokens (words) I thought that lalvla = lanli+valsi = analyzer + wordcould serve.It could be: x1 is a scanner/lexer/tokenizer for language x2 written in language x3Where x3 is a programming language or a formalism.In the same vein: lalgen = lanli + gerna = analyzer + grammarcould serve for: x1 is a parser for language x2 written in language x3 producing x4 Comment is too long. Go here to view the full text.
I was looking for the Lojban words for "parser" and "scanner" in the computer science sense. I've not been able to find them so I guessed I had to invent mine (assuming they are not already there).
So, since a scanner (or lexer) is something that analyze a text to extract tokens (words) I thought that lalvla = lanli+valsi = analyzer + wordcould serve.
It could be: x1 is a scanner/lexer/tokenizer for language x2 written in language x3Where x3 is a programming language or a formalism.
In the same vein: lalgen = lanli + gerna = analyzer + grammarcould serve for: x1 is a parser for language x2 written in language x3 producing x4
i seem to recall {genturfa'i} being used for parser.
>>1368>> {genturfa'i}If I understand it correctly, it defines a parser as something "that finds the grammatical structures". I'm ok with that (even if I would have argued a little on the choice of "find/discover").Now,to be consistent, a lexer should be something that "finds the words as defined by a grammar". Should it be {genvlafa'i} ?
>>1368
>> {genturfa'i}
If I understand it correctly, it defines a parser as something "that finds the grammatical structures". I'm ok with that (even if I would have argued a little on the choice of "find/discover").
Now,to be consistent, a lexer should be something that "finds the words as defined by a grammar". Should it be {genvlafa'i} ?
>>1366"vlalanli" and "genlanli". The right-most part of the lujvo is the most basic meaning of the word. Thus a "lanvla" is fundamentally a word ("analyzed/analytical-word"?), and "vlalanli" is fundamentally an analyzer.>>1369Perhaps "vlafendi", "word-partitioner" for "lexer"? Unfortunately, that's easily interpreted as "splits words" rather than "splits into words"."genturfa'i" makes sense, since a parser takes a stream of input and outputs a grammar-structure (specifically, a parse tree), so it could be "x1 finds/discovers the grammar-structure of x2". "lexer" could simply be "vlafa'i". If you want to be more specific than "word-finder", you could use the tanru "vlafa'i samvelkanji", "word-finder computer-algorithm". In the appropriate context, though, "vlafa'i" will probably be sufficient.
>>1366
"vlalanli" and "genlanli". The right-most part of the lujvo is the most basic meaning of the word. Thus a "lanvla" is fundamentally a word ("analyzed/analytical-word"?), and "vlalanli" is fundamentally an analyzer.
>>1369
Perhaps "vlafendi", "word-partitioner" for "lexer"? Unfortunately, that's easily interpreted as "splits words" rather than "splits into words".
"genturfa'i" makes sense, since a parser takes a stream of input and outputs a grammar-structure (specifically, a parse tree), so it could be "x1 finds/discovers the grammar-structure of x2". "lexer" could simply be "vlafa'i". If you want to be more specific than "word-finder", you could use the tanru "vlafa'i samvelkanji", "word-finder computer-algorithm". In the appropriate context, though, "vlafa'i" will probably be sufficient.
coi jbopre,jbotcan's favicons are pretty much Lojban.org's. Why, somebody who isn't me oughta make new favicons for jbotcan.Besides making a new general favicon for jbotcan, having a favicon for each board would be nice. Should the adventurer {goi ko'a} choose this path, then having something where there is a general symbol, and a background that matches the colors of each board might be something that {ko'a} may possibly wish to consider doing. Or not.The creators of the best favicons will discover that they are the winners of an impressive array of fabulous Lojbanistani internets.mu'o
Can I insert the hyphen letters whenever I want, just so that I know that I am avoiding ambiguity. For example, say that I didn't know if "jbobau" would parse. Could I make it "jborbau", just in case?If I have a Type-3 fu'ivla, such as one for "calculus", can I include .ybu. in the "calculus" part of the word? Meaning, could I make it "cmacrkalkylus"? What if, as in this example, the penultimate syllable would have .ybu. as its vowel? Or should it be "cmacrkalk,lus", the comma acting as an aspiration mark on the ky. basically? (Two related questions: 1) what are the parts of the fu'ivla called (meaning the "cmacr" part and the "kalkylus" part)? 2) What is the name of the comma-lerfu?).Can .ybu. be stressed if in the penult? If not where would the stress fall? Kind of related to this: in the name "gr,tlin." where is the stress? Can a syllabic ry., ly., ny., or my. be stressed? Or they stressed by default if in the penultimate, or do they need to be represented with a case shift? If they cannot be stressed, where is it?
Can I insert the hyphen letters whenever I want, just so that I know that I am avoiding ambiguity. For example, say that I didn't know if "jbobau" would parse. Could I make it "jborbau", just in case?
If I have a Type-3 fu'ivla, such as one for "calculus", can I include .ybu. in the "calculus" part of the word? Meaning, could I make it "cmacrkalkylus"? What if, as in this example, the penultimate syllable would have .ybu. as its vowel? Or should it be "cmacrkalk,lus", the comma acting as an aspiration mark on the ky. basically? (Two related questions: 1) what are the parts of the fu'ivla called (meaning the "cmacr" part and the "kalkylus" part)? 2) What is the name of the comma-lerfu?).
Can .ybu. be stressed if in the penult? If not where would the stress fall? Kind of related to this: in the name "gr,tlin." where is the stress? Can a syllabic ry., ly., ny., or my. be stressed? Or they stressed by default if in the penultimate, or do they need to be represented with a case shift? If they cannot be stressed, where is it?
>>1352Does that mean if you are slow speaker you would speak like this:mi yyyyyyyyy tavla yyyyyyy bau la lojban yyy
>>1352
Does that mean if you are slow speaker you would speak like this:
mi yyyyyyyyy tavla yyyyyyy bau la lojban yyy
>>1354 That's exactly what ".y" is for, yes.
>>1354
That's exactly what ".y" is for, yes.
>>1352Dang. I was hoping a grammar could be made which marked every word-break (adjacent pauses and/or whitespace) as mandatory or optional.
Dang. I was hoping a grammar could be made which marked every word-break (adjacent pauses and/or whitespace) as mandatory or optional.
I have been thinking about it, and have come to realize that in speech, coming to rely upon a simple pause in order to distinguish the end (and sometimes the beginning) of a cmene/name is quite cumbersome, impractical, and liable to failure. The pause just is not natural and disrupts the flow of the speech. Using zo ‘ku” may not be effective either, because if one does not pause at the end of the name, it becomes incorporated anyway. I was thinking that introducing certain sounds that are found nowhere else could work. For example, as I say .y’y. as an “h”, I could use the voiceless dental fricative at the beginning of a name, and the voiced dental fricative at the end. But I swiftly realized that apart from modifying many of Lojban’s core rules, adding two new lerfu (and finding symbols for them) for only one purpose, and the fact that not everyone says .y’y. as an “h” (oh, and the fact that the dental fricatives are hardly universal), this could get annoying, would be highly repetitive and obvious in writing, and would just generally not catch on. (Clicks would actually be pretty cool, though!) I also considered intonation changes and aspiration patterns. Then I came to other cmavo. One could invent an entirely new cmavo (such as “xe’ai”) for the purpose of ending a name. But then, in that example, one would need to modify the rules so that a name cannot contain the sounds “xe’ai” in it. As unlikely as that name may seem, changing the rules would be highly difficult and vexatious. However, in the end, I realized that one could (optinally) start using a cmavo such as “la’ei” at the end of a name (cmene terminator) without as much difficulty. It is uses (currently) free cmavo-space and is easy enough to say at the end of a name if need be. No change in the rules is necessary because (and this is the brilliant zo’o part) “la” already cannot be found within a name! Once one hears the “la” part of the sentence, they know that that name is over (and possibly a new one is beginning), and the “[h]ei” part tells us that it just is a terminator. All then that would be needed is community recognition of the definition, just like any other experimental jbovla. Comment is too long. Go here to view the full text.
I have been thinking about it, and have come to realize that in speech, coming to rely upon a simple pause in order to distinguish the end (and sometimes the beginning) of a cmene/name is quite cumbersome, impractical, and liable to failure. The pause just is not natural and disrupts the flow of the speech. Using zo ‘ku” may not be effective either, because if one does not pause at the end of the name, it becomes incorporated anyway. I was thinking that introducing certain sounds that are found nowhere else could work. For example, as I say .y’y. as an “h”, I could use the voiceless dental fricative at the beginning of a name, and the voiced dental fricative at the end. But I swiftly realized that apart from modifying many of Lojban’s core rules, adding two new lerfu (and finding symbols for them) for only one purpose, and the fact that not everyone says .y’y. as an “h” (oh, and the fact that the dental fricatives are hardly universal), this could get annoying, would be highly repetitive and obvious in writing, and would just generally not catch on. (Clicks would actually be pretty cool, though!) I also considered intonation changes and aspiration patterns. Then I came to other cmavo. One could invent an entirely new cmavo (such as “xe’ai”) for the purpose of ending a name. But then, in that example, one would need to modify the rules so that a name cannot contain the sounds “xe’ai” in it. As unlikely as that name may seem, changing the rules would be highly difficult and vexatious. However, in the end, I realized that one could (optinally) start using a cmavo such as “la’ei” at the end of a name (cmene terminator) without as much difficulty. It is uses (currently) free cmavo-space and is easy enough to say at the end of a name if need be. No change in the rules is necessary because (and this is the brilliant zo’o part) “la” already cannot be found within a name! Once one hears the “la” part of the sentence, they know that that name is over (and possibly a new one is beginning), and the “[h]ei” part tells us that it just is a terminator. All then that would be needed is community recognition of the definition, just like any other experimental jbovla.
>>1308"la" is permitted in a name, provided it follows a consonant. So, if "la'ei" follows a name which ends in a consonant, and there's no pause between them, it will be incorporated into the name.There is also a movement towards always putting a pause between LA/DOI and CMENE, so that "la" sounds can appear in names without restrictions. If this ever becomes official, la'ei would always be incorporated into preceeding names.Pauses can actually be quite short, especially if pronounced as glottal stops. Most spoken Lojban I've heard (which, admittedly, isn't a lot) has pauses between almost every word.Also, you don't have to use cmene for names. It's perfectly legal to use a name like "la dansu kansa be lo labno".
>>1308
"la" is permitted in a name, provided it follows a consonant. So, if "la'ei" follows a name which ends in a consonant, and there's no pause between them, it will be incorporated into the name.
There is also a movement towards always putting a pause between LA/DOI and CMENE, so that "la" sounds can appear in names without restrictions. If this ever becomes official, la'ei would always be incorporated into preceeding names.
Pauses can actually be quite short, especially if pronounced as glottal stops. Most spoken Lojban I've heard (which, admittedly, isn't a lot) has pauses between almost every word.
Also, you don't have to use cmene for names. It's perfectly legal to use a name like "la dansu kansa be lo labno".
(I'm assuming xorlo semantics here.)There is a difference between {le co'e} and {zo'e}, because {zo'e} is totally generic, whereas {le co'e} is referring to some specific thing (because that's what {le} means).On the other hand, there is no difference between {zo'e} and {lo co'e}, because {zo'e} is a totally generic sumti, {co'e} is a totally generic selbri, and {lo} is a totally generic way to make a selbri into a sumti.
(I'm assuming xorlo semantics here.)
There is a difference between {le co'e} and {zo'e}, because {zo'e} is totally generic, whereas {le co'e} is referring to some specific thing (because that's what {le} means).
On the other hand, there is no difference between {zo'e} and {lo co'e}, because {zo'e} is a totally generic sumti, {co'e} is a totally generic selbri, and {lo} is a totally generic way to make a selbri into a sumti.
Ehhh..."some sumti" vs. "the thing that fills the x1 of some selbri"
Ehhh...
"some sumti" vs. "the thing that fills the x1 of some selbri"
Can I say "I am mentally and emotionally happy" just by ".uiro'ero'i", or do I need a more complex contstruct? How can I say that I feel something oriented to: myself, you, someone else, and the various types of us?How can I say that I feel an emotion toward feeling another emotion. For example, I want to say "I am happy to love you", but "do .ui .iu" or something wouldn't work, right?Can I apply an emotional intensity marker ("sai", for example) to a modifier (such as "ga'i")?Last, how would I express an emotion toward a vocative, discursive, or evidential?
Can I say "I am mentally and emotionally happy" just by ".uiro'ero'i", or do I need a more complex contstruct? How can I say that I feel something oriented to: myself, you, someone else, and the various types of us?
How can I say that I feel an emotion toward feeling another emotion. For example, I want to say "I am happy to love you", but "do .ui .iu" or something wouldn't work, right?
Can I apply an emotional intensity marker ("sai", for example) to a modifier (such as "ga'i")?
Last, how would I express an emotion toward a vocative, discursive, or evidential?
>>1312 Might as well attach it to this thread.If I say <<zo'o mi do .iu prami>>, ignoring/apart from the slight (and arguable) redundancy of zo <<.iu>>, how would zo <<zo'o>> modify zo <<.iu>>?Would it be similar to <<.iu to zo'o toi>> (under Selkik's system); or would they just be independent, similar to <<do .iu zo'o>>?
>>1312
Might as well attach it to this thread.
If I say <<zo'o mi do .iu prami>>, ignoring/apart from the slight (and arguable) redundancy of zo <<.iu>>, how would zo <<zo'o>> modify zo <<.iu>>?
Would it be similar to <<.iu to zo'o toi>> (under Selkik's system); or would they just be independent, similar to <<do .iu zo'o>>?
>>1312 What does <<ro'i>> apply to in <<fu'ero'i .oi .ii .uu fu'o>>? Does <<ro'i>> apply to some <<ge'e>>, or to everything within the brackets?What about <<fu'e .oi .ii .uu fu'oro'i>>?
What does <<ro'i>> apply to in <<fu'ero'i .oi .ii .uu fu'o>>? Does <<ro'i>> apply to some <<ge'e>>, or to everything within the brackets?
What about <<fu'e .oi .ii .uu fu'oro'i>>?
>>1342I think "zo'o" modifies "mi do iu prami", and "iu" modifies "do".>>1344I think "ro'i oi ii uu" modifies everything up to the next "fu'o" (in this case, nothing).Same with "fu'e oi ii uu fu'oro'i": "oi ii uu" modifies nothing. And I have no idea what "ro'i" modifies here. Possibly whatever preceeds the string of indicators.The internal grammar of indicators hasn't been formalized, as far as I know. The only constraint seems to be that "fu'e" can only appear at the head of a string of indicators.
>>1342
I think "zo'o" modifies "mi do iu prami", and "iu" modifies "do".
>>1344
I think "ro'i oi ii uu" modifies everything up to the next "fu'o" (in this case, nothing).
Same with "fu'e oi ii uu fu'oro'i": "oi ii uu" modifies nothing. And I have no idea what "ro'i" modifies here. Possibly whatever preceeds the string of indicators.
The internal grammar of indicators hasn't been formalized, as far as I know. The only constraint seems to be that "fu'e" can only appear at the head of a string of indicators.
I saw a reference of "the tosmabru test" and something about "slinku'i". What are these?
I have no idea so I googled them:http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=tosmabru+testhttp://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=slinku%27iLujvo and fu'ivla formation issues by the looks of it.
I have no idea so I googled them:http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=tosmabru+testhttp://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=slinku%27i
Lujvo and fu'ivla formation issues by the looks of it.
I see a large peak at the end of 2006 inhttp://www.google.com.mx/trends?q=lojbanhave you got any idea what it may be for?
I see a large peak at the end of 2006 in
http://www.google.com.mx/trends?q=lojban
have you got any idea what it may be for?
ua
>>1326.uecu'i
did you see? it's so great!
>>1332It's a wiki. Go write the pages they should link to. :)
i'esai doi galfi prenuBut where has the "Exaustive list of short fu'ivla forms" gone?
i'esai doi galfi prenu
But where has the "Exaustive list of short fu'ivla forms" gone?
>>1334My changes would border on vandalism I bet. :P