xu do sisku lo lojbo tcana
  [Home] [Manage]

Posts and uploaded files are owned by the poster. jbotcan.org is not liable for the content submitted by the poster. Downloading any poster-submitted files is doing so at your own risk.


[Return]
Posting mode: Reply

Painter: Width: Height: Source:

Leave these fields empty (spam trap):
Name
Link
Subject (encouraged)
Comment
File
Password (for post and file deletion)
  • Supported file types are: GIF, JPG, PNG
  • Maximum file size allowed is 1000 KB.
  • Images greater than 200x200 pixels will be thumbnailed.

No.1308  

I have been thinking about it, and have come to realize that in speech, coming to rely upon a simple pause in order to distinguish the end (and sometimes the beginning) of a cmene/name is quite cumbersome, impractical, and liable to failure. The pause just is not natural and disrupts the flow of the speech. Using zo ‘ku” may not be effective either, because if one does not pause at the end of the name, it becomes incorporated anyway. I was thinking that introducing certain sounds that are found nowhere else could work. For example, as I say .y’y. as an “h”, I could use the voiceless dental fricative at the beginning of a name, and the voiced dental fricative at the end. But I swiftly realized that apart from modifying many of Lojban’s core rules, adding two new lerfu (and finding symbols for them) for only one purpose, and the fact that not everyone says .y’y. as an “h” (oh, and the fact that the dental fricatives are hardly universal), this could get annoying, would be highly repetitive and obvious in writing, and would just generally not catch on. (Clicks would actually be pretty cool, though!) I also considered intonation changes and aspiration patterns. Then I came to other cmavo. One could invent an entirely new cmavo (such as “xe’ai”) for the purpose of ending a name. But then, in that example, one would need to modify the rules so that a name cannot contain the sounds “xe’ai” in it. As unlikely as that name may seem, changing the rules would be highly difficult and vexatious. However, in the end, I realized that one could (optinally) start using a cmavo such as “la’ei” at the end of a name (cmene terminator) without as much difficulty. It is uses (currently) free cmavo-space and is easy enough to say at the end of a name if need be. No change in the rules is necessary because (and this is the brilliant zo’o part) “la” already cannot be found within a name! Once one hears the “la” part of the sentence, they know that that name is over (and possibly a new one is beginning), and the “[h]ei” part tells us that it just is a terminator. All then that would be needed is community recognition of the definition, just like any other experimental jbovla.

Excuse me for asking this, I am novice at Lojban (mi jbotolcertu(?)), but what is the difference between “le co’e” and “zo’e”?

mu’o mi’e .kinleirften,cmaisr. la’ei

>> No.1309  

>>1308

Hey, doi .kinleirften,cmaisr. Welcome to Lojban. I really enjoyed your analysis and agree with you on many points. I actually do think that it is a fairly brilliant idea and could be quite useful, at least to avoid confusion. I do not see why not to have it, at any rate. I think that I will start using it.

As for the question, here we go. Potentially, there is no difference. The main thing, I think, that can make [lu «le co’e» li’u] and [zo «zo’e»] distinguishable, is that the latter encompasses all of the “ gadri + «co’e» ”-type phrases as possibilities. So, while the former may mean “le gerku”, the latter can also mean “la .gerku.”. [lu «le co’e» li’u] is just a member of the set of possible “zo’e”’s.

Of course, I am new to the language, too. So what so I know? I could be totally off the mark.

mi’e .kr,tis. la’ei mu’o

>> No.1310  

>>1308

"la" is permitted in a name, provided it follows a consonant. So, if "la'ei" follows a name which ends in a consonant, and there's no pause between them, it will be incorporated into the name.

There is also a movement towards always putting a pause between LA/DOI and CMENE, so that "la" sounds can appear in names without restrictions. If this ever becomes official, la'ei would always be incorporated into preceeding names.

Pauses can actually be quite short, especially if pronounced as glottal stops. Most spoken Lojban I've heard (which, admittedly, isn't a lot) has pauses between almost every word.

Also, you don't have to use cmene for names. It's perfectly legal to use a name like "la dansu kansa be lo labno".

>> No.1349  

(I'm assuming xorlo semantics here.)

There is a difference between {le co'e} and {zo'e}, because {zo'e} is totally generic, whereas {le co'e} is referring to some specific thing (because that's what {le} means).

On the other hand, there is no difference between {zo'e} and {lo co'e}, because {zo'e} is a totally generic sumti, {co'e} is a totally generic selbri, and {lo} is a totally generic way to make a selbri into a sumti.

>> No.1353  

Ehhh...

"some sumti" vs. "the thing that fills the x1 of some selbri"



Delete Post []
Password