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"logical prenex"?

>> No.333  

There probably isn't one?

>> No.334  

Yet, I mean!

>> No.340  


I used "li'erpau" for it in <http://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/lojban>

>> No.373  


That's awesome Xorxes! You've blazed many trails into the cicricfoi of jbogu'e!

It seems to me like "li'erpau" should have a fairly general meaning, .ie pei? It's also used on the wikipedia page for Toki Pona, and there it seems to describe the beginning of syllables I think.. though I don't really understand the sentence it's used in there.

How's this for a rough draft of a seljvo for zo li'erpau: l1+p1 is a part which appears at the beginning of p2, coming before l2 in sequence l3.

Should we also maybe think of a word for specifically the part of a Lojbanic sentence before a "zo'u"? I kind of like the sound of za'e "brili'e", but I'm not sure if that's an ideal fit.

mu'o mi'e se ckiku

>> No.375  


Yes, li'erpau can be quite general.

I suspect the sentence about Toki Pona is missing a "nai": "ga nai ... gi ...", "if a syllable consists of only a vowel, then it comes at the beginnng of a word".

I'm not sure whether the prenex is considered a part of the bridi or not. I can think of arguments for both positions. Te place structure of "bridi" suggests not.

>> No.397  


Is an {r} necessary in {li'erpau}? How would {li'epau} be broken apart?

>> No.398  


Without the "r", it become "[li'e pau]", or "preceded by, question follows". Cmavo do not depend on stress; so one may stress all of it, none of it, the penult, the ultimate syllable, or whatever. The only thing that matters is the sounds used (thus [zo <<li'e] is different from [zo <<li'a] but not [zo <<li'E]).

See http://jbotcan.org/cllc/c4/s6.html for more details. Specifically, the following section:

>> " As a brivla, a lujvo must also contain a consonant cluster within the first five letters --- this ensures that they cannot be mistaken for compound cmavo. Of course, all lujvo have at least six letters since they have two or more rafsi, each at least three letters long; hence they cannot be confused with gismu.

When attaching two rafsi together, it may be necessary to insert a hyphen letter. In Lojban, the term hyphen'' always refers to a letter, either the vowel y'' or one of the consonants r'' and n''. (The letter ``l'' can also be a hyphen, but is not used as one in lujvo.)

The ``y''-hyphen is used after a CVC-form rafsi when joining it with the following rafsi could result in an impermissible consonant pair, or when the resulting lujvo could fall apart into two or more words (either cmavo or gismu).

Thus, the tanru pante tavla'' (protest talk'') cannot produce the lujvo patta'a'', because tt'' is not a permissible consonant pair; the lujvo must be patyta'a''. Similarly, the tanru mudri siclu'' (wooden whistle'') cannot form the lujvo mudsiclu''; instead, mudysiclu'' must be used. (Remember that y'' is not counted in determining whether the first five letters of a brivla contain a consonant cluster: this is why.)

The y''-hyphen is also used to attach a 4-letter rafsi, formed by dropping the final vowel of a gismu, to the following rafsi. (This procedure was shown, but not explained, in Examples 6.1 to 6.5.) The lujvo forms zunlyjamfu'', zunlyjma'', zuljamfu'', and zuljma'' are all legitimate and equivalent forms made from the tanru zunle jamfu'' (left foot''). Of these, zuljma'' is the preferred one since it is the shortest; it thus is likely to be the form listed in a Lojban dictionary.

The r''-hyphen and its close relative, the n''-hyphen, are used in lujvo only after CVV-form rafsi. A hyphen is always required in a two-part lujvo of the form CVV-CVV, since otherwise there would be no consonant cluster.

An r-''hyphen or n''-hyphen is also required after the CVV-form rafsi of any lujvo of the form CVV-CVC/CV or CVV-CCVCV since it would otherwise fall apart into a CVV-form cmavo and a gismu. In any lujvo with more than two parts, a CVV-form rafsi in the initial position must always be followed by a hyphen. If the hyphen were to be omitted, the supposed lujvo could be broken into smaller words without the hyphen: because the CVV-form rafsi would be interpreted as a cmavo, and the remainder of the word as a valid lujvo that is one rafsi shorter.

An n''-hyphen is only used in place of an r''-hyphen when the following rafsi begins with r''. For example, the tanru rokci renro'' (rock throw'') cannot be expressed as ro'ire'o'' (which breaks up into two cmavo), nor can it be ro'irre'o'' (which has an impermissible double consonant); the n''-hyphen is required, and the correct form of the hyphenated lujvo is ro'inre'o''. The same lujvo could also be expressed without hyphenation as rokre'o''. "

>> No.401  


Adding on (from the same site, using same notation as Krilltish):

>> " Note that rafsi may not be used in ``zei'' phrases, because they are not words. CVV rafsi look like words (specifically cmavo) but there can be no confusion between the two uses of the same letters, because cmavo appear only as separate words or in compound cmavo (which are really just a notation for writing separate but closely related words as if they were one); rafsi appear only as parts of lujvo. "


When can "ly" be used as a hyphen?

>> No.403  


"l" can be used as a hyphen in type-3 fu'ivla. Type-3's have one of these three forms:


If one or both of the C's at the side of the -r- happens to be "r", then "-r-" chages to "-n-", but if the hyphen has "r" on one side and "n" on the other, "-l-" is used as hyphen. This can then result in little monsters like "cipnlrobin".

>> No.404  


"cipnlrobin" is of course a cmevla, not a fu'ivla. Let's say then "cipnlrobini"

>> No.408  


Wouldn't {cipnrobini}, without {l}, work as well?

>> No.411  


It would work in the sense that it is a valid fu'ivla form. But it is not a type-3 with classifier cipn-. (In fact, since cip is the rafsi for cipra, it's a type-3 with classifier cip: cip-n-robini.)

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